Legislature(1995 - 1996)
02/05/1996 08:13 AM House RES
| Audio | Topic |
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
HOUSE RESOURCES STANDING COMMITTEE
February 5, 1996
8:13 a.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT
Representative Joe Green, Co-Chairman
Representative William K. "Bill" Williams, Co-Chairman
Representative Scott Ogan, Vice Chairman
Representative Alan Austerman
Representative Pete Kott
Representative Irene Nicholia
MEMBERS ABSENT
Representative Ramona Barnes
Representative John Davies
Representative Don Long
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
HOUSE BILL NO. 447
"An Act providing that state land, water, and land and water may
not be classified so as to preclude or restrict traditional means
of access for traditional recreational uses."
- HEARD AND HELD
*HOUSE BILL NO. 439
"An Act relating to minerals, including coal, to the statewide
bonding pool for the reclamation activities imposed on mining
operations, and to the statewide bonding pool's use for surface
coal mining projects."
- PASSED HB 439 OUT OF COMMITTEE
*HOUSE SPECIAL CONCURRENT RESOLUTION NO. 1
Disapproving Executive Order No. 92.
- PASSED HSCR 1 OUT OF COMMITTEE
(* First public hearing)
PREVIOUS ACTION
BILL: HB 447
SHORT TITLE: CAN'T CLOSE LAND TO TRADITIONAL REC. USES
SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S) MASEK,Williams
JRN-DATED JRN-PG ACTION
01/24/96 2524 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)
01/24/96 2524 (H) RESOURCES
01/26/96 2548 (H) COSPONSOR(S): WILLIAMS
01/31/96 (H) RES AT 08:00 AM CAPITOL 124
01/31/96 (H) MINUTE(RES)
02/05/96 (H) RES AT 08:00 AM CAPITOL 124
BILL: HB 439
SHORT TITLE: MINING BONDING POOL & ADVISORY COM'N
SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S) BRICE,Kelly
JRN-DATE JRN-PG ACTION
01/22/96 2507 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)
01/22/96 2507 (H) RESOURCES, LABOR & COMMERCE, FINANCE
01/31/96 2587 (H) COSPONSOR(S): KELLY
02/05/96 (H) RES AT 08:00 AM CAPITOL 124
BILL: HSCR 1
SHORT TITLE: DISAPPROVING EXECUTIVE ORDER 92
SPONSOR(S): SPECIAL COMMITTEE ON OIL AND GAS
JRN-DATE JRN-PG ACTION
01/26/96 2540 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)
01/26/96 2540 (H) RESOURCES, FINANCE
02/05/96 (H) RES AT 08:00 AM CAPITOL 124
WITNESS REGISTER
DAVID STANCLIFF, Legislative Staff
to Representative Beverly Masek
Alaska State Legislature
Capitol, Room 418
Juneau, AK 99801
Telephone: (907) 465-2688
POSITION STATEMENT: Presented sponsor statement on HB 447.
RON SWANSON, Director
Division of Lands
Department of Natural Resources
3601 C Street, Suite 1122
Anchorage, AK 99503-5947
Telephone: (907) 762-2692
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on HB 447.
DAN RITZMAN, Volunteer
Alaska Environmental Lobby
Northern Alaska Environmental Center
324 Yana Court
Fairbanks, AK 99709
Telephone: (907) 452-5021
POSITION STATEMENT: Has concerns with HB 447.
PATRICK PHILLIPS
8940 Greenbelt Drive
Anchorage, AK 99502
Telephone: (907) 243-2179
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of HB 447.
KEVIN HITE
Anchorage Snowmobile Club
8050 Summerset Drive
Anchorage, AK 99518
Telephone: (907) 522-6373
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of HB 447.
MICK MANNS
Paradise Valley
Bettles, AK 99726
Telephone: (907) 479-5704
POSITION STATEMENT: Has concerns with HB 447. Supports HB 439.
RANDY CROSBY
Outdoor Recreational Tourism
3300 Wesleyan Drive
Anchorage, AK 99508
Telephone: (907) 333-3665
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of HB 447
LINNEA GREAVES
P. O. Box 102873
Anchorage, AK 99510
Telephone: (907) 272-7480
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of HB 447
ROY C. BOWDRE
P. O. Box 2
Delta Junction, AK 99737-0002
Telephone: (907) 895-4448
POSITION STATEMENT: Sent a written statement supporting HB 447.
DANA OLSON
HC 30, Box 5438
Wasilla, AK 99654
Telephone: (907) 373-4612
POSITION STATEMENT: Has concerns with HB 447.
DAVID ROGERS, Attorney
211 Fourth Street, Suite 108
P. O. Box 33932
Juneau, AK 99803
Telephone: (907) 586-1107
POSITION STATEMENT: Has concerns with HB 447.
ROBERT B. STILES, President
Alaska Coal Association
711 H Street
Anchorage, AK 99501
Telephone: (907) 276-6868
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of HB 439.
CHARLES P. BODDY
Usibelli Coal Mine, Inc.
122 First Avenue, Suite 302
Fairbanks, AK 99701
Telephone: (907) 452-2625
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of HB 439.
NICO BUS, Acting Director
Division of Support Services
Department of Natural Resources
400 Willoughby Avenue
Juneau, AK 99801-1724
Telephone: (907) 465-2406
POSITION STATEMENT: The DNR supports Executive Order No. 92.
KENNETH A. BOYD, Director
Division of Oil and Gas
Department of Natural Resources
3601 C Street, Suite 1380
Anchorage, AK 99503
Telephone: (907) 762-2547
POSITION STATEMENT: The Division supports Executive Order No. 92.
ACTION NARRATIVE
TAPE 96-12, SIDE A
Number 000
CO-CHAIRMAN JOE GREEN called the House Resources Committee meeting
to order at 8:13 a.m. Members present at the call to order were
Representatives Green, Williams, Ogan, Kott, and Nicholia. Members
absent were Representatives Austerman, Barnes, Davies and Long.
HB 447 - CAN'T CLOSE LAND TO TRADITIONAL REC. USES
CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN announced that the committee would hear HB 447,
HB 439 and HSCR 1, in that order. Witnesses from Anchorage, Delta
Junction and Fairbanks were on the teleconference network and Jane
Anvik was available via offnet.
Number 079
DAVID STANCLIFF, Legislative Staff Assistant testified on behalf of
the sponsor, Representative Beverly Masek, and said there are two
reasons for HB 447. The first reason is an Administrative branch
of government is using a legislatively created statute for a
purpose which the legislature did not intend. The second reason is
to involve the people's branch of government in the major decisions
concerning public access to state land and waters.
MR. STANCLIFF informed the committee of an authority that now
exists, according to the Administration, which enables the
commissioner or the director to enlarge the state park system and
block traditional public access without legislative involvement.
MR. STANCLIFF distributed a handout entitled, Denali State Park
Master Plan and referred to a departmental map, Denali State Park
boundary modifications. He said the park was created by the
legislative authority, but the boundaries on the map are not those
created by the legislature exclusively. On the Southwest side of
the park boundary, there is an expansion of the original boundary
which, purposefully, takes in Blair Lake.
Number 250
MR. STANCLIFF informed the committee that the new section of park
was created through an ILMA, an Interagency Land Management
Agreement. When the Department of Natural Resources was asked to
explain how the 360 acre expansion happened, without statutory
authority, Representative Masek received a document from Jim
Stratton, Director, Division of Parks and Outdoor Recreation,
citing statutes that are totally unrelated to expanding parks
restrictions or authority.
Number 293
MR. STANCLIFF said the Administration has been asked to produce
records showing the number of times and purposes ILMA authority has
been used. He said the sponsor was given an estimate of over 500
times; 50 decisions involved park authority and 50 more involved
fish and game authority. The remainder involved the Department of
Transportation for material sites which is one of the categories
this authority was intended for along with firefighting and
telecommunication sites.
MR. STANCLIFF continued, the legislature gave the Administration
the authority to transfer interagency land on areas up to 640 acres
without legislative involvement. That authority, as it has been
used on Blair Lake, has meant the end of over 50 years of
traditional access. He said the new regulations for Denali Park
were drafted to specifically eliminate aircraft landings in the
ILMA zone at Blair Lake.
MR. STANCLIFF related that Representative Masek had difficulty
explaining to her constituency that this Administration, or any
Administration, could eliminate activity which has taken place for
over 50 years without legislative oversight.
Number 431
MR. STANCLIFF said Representative Masek introduced HB 447 to stop
this type of activity and prevent it from happening in the future.
He said the Senate version of HB 447 has ten co-sponsors.
MR. STANCLIFF continued, the reason Representative Masek took a
broader approach in dealing with the administrative access
prohibitions is twofold: this committee and the full legislature
should establish ground rules for matters as important as public
access, long term public access for recreation. HB 447 would
establish those ground rules by not allowing access activities to
be eliminated without legislative consent.
Number 511
MR. STANCLIFF said HB 447 will not affect Administrative authority
within parks and it will not affect fish and game lands. The bill
pertains to the land and waters under general land management of
Title 38. All other lands and waters are in Title 41. He said the
sponsor will leave it to the committee's discretion whether the
legislature needs to have oversight in those areas as well.
MR. STANCLIFF concluded, this bill is about accountability and
striking a better balance on behalf of Alaskans. To date, no
legislature has placed in statute, language recognizing and
protecting public access to lands and waters for recreation as a
broad policy matter.
Number 683
CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN said, by allowing this public access, could there
be restrictions on "other uses," which might ultimately be deemed
the highest and best use, such as a gold mine where there could be
the potential of injury to the public.
MR. STANCLIFF responded that almost all recreational access in the
state is along routes traditionally used by miners, the timber
industry and others. It is not Representative Masek's intent to
obstruct valid land disposals or land use patterns with regard to
development by this legislation. If there needs to be protective
language inserted by the committee, the sponsor will be happy to
cooperate.
Number 820
RON SWANSON, Director, Division of Land, Department of Natural
Resources said he would provide background information in addition
to the sponsor statement. He said about 500 Interagency Land
Management Agreements (ILMAs) have been issued since statehood.
ILMA's have been issued to the Division of Parks, the Department of
Transportation and Public Facilities and the Department of Fish and
Game. Most of the ILMA's have gone to DOT/PF for a variety of
purposes: material sites, communication sites, airports, and
maintenance facilities. The Department of Fish and Game sites are
research sites and hatcheries.
MR. SWANSON said the Division of Parks ILMA's are issued in a
variety of ways and under a variety of different land ownerships.
Most of these sites are "507 sites" conveyed to the DNR by the
Bureau of Land Management under statute 507 which says they can
only be used for recreational uses. These sites are usually
campgrounds like Harding Lake and Chena River; others have been
added via the planning process. The DNR goes through a land use
planning process using an area plan. The areas are identified by
recreational use, either through expansion of additional parks,
like Denali, or just identified for those particular purposes.
They are then transferred to the Division of Parks for management
because that is the appropriate entity.
MR. SWANSON said, when the DNR transfers an ILMA to parks, fish and
game, or transportation, we convey it subject to their authority to
manage the land. In this case, it is the Division of Parks, and it
is under Title 41, not Title 38. In the DOT/PF, it is under Title
19, and in the Department of Fish and Game, it is under Title 16.
When the Division of Parks receives the land, they use their
authority, sometimes they restrict access, but they also have
citation authority. The state under Title 38 authority has no
citation authority for activities that occurred within the area.
MR. SWANSON said the intent of the bill focuses on parks and the
activities that happen within parks and the restrictions there. He
recommended that the committee look at Title 41 and not Title 38.
To his knowledge, the department has never restricted access under
Title 38 at any time. Restrictions that have occurred on existing
leases such as the Fort Knox Mine. The DNR cannot allow people to
go meandering around and digging up holes, but if it is under
lease, a private landowner can do that. The DNR has never
restricted access on state land under Title 38 authority.
Number 976
MR. SWANSON mentioned the DNR Catalog of Alaska State Parks which
lists all the parks and sites and the method they are managed under
today. He identified some of the most popular ones, adding that
Land and Water Conservation Funds and federal sport fish money have
been used on these sites: Chena River, Harding Lake, Valdez
Glacier, Worthington Glacier, Southcentral McHugh Creek, Clam
Gulch, Kodiak's Buskin River, Inca River and Fort Abercrombie are
under an ILMA. In Southeast Alaska, the Chilkoot Trail, the entire
Juneau Trail system and Sitka's historical Totem Bight are all
examples of parks that have been ILMA'd over to the Division of
Parks to manage under Title 41 authority.
Number 990
CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN noted the arrival of Representative Austerman and
the presence of Representative Tom Brice.
Number 1000
REPRESENTATIVE OGAN referred to the Denali State Park Master Plan
and discussed the East boundary expansion adjacent to Indian River
of approximately 470 acres. He asked what the term, "a more logical
boundary means."
MR. SWANSON agreed with Representative Ogan that the current
boundary is the railroad tracks. He said the area along the river
is a popular use area and the idea is to adjust the boundary right
up to the river.
DAN RITZMAN, Alaska Environmental Lobby, expressed concerns with HB
447. He said the Alaska Environmental Lobby is comprised of 22
member groups from around the state and participates in the many
land use planning decisions that HB 447 seeks to circumvent.
Developing a long range management plan should be a long detailed
process involving representatives from all of the interested users
groups and local and regional residents. Under current law, in
regulations, the state land management agencies take very in-depth
planning processes before classifying land use.
MR. RITZMAN continued, a good example of this is the recent
planning process for Denali State Park. That process lasted for
over two years and had twelve public meetings, task force meetings,
and, at least, three opportunities for written public comment to be
submitted.
MR. RITZMAN felt that HB 447 would take land classification
responsibilities away from the professionals in the land management
agencies, and make it a political decision in the hands of the
legislature. He said the legislature does not have the time or the
staff to conduct the long involved, public involvement processes
necessary to make land classification decisions. He feels these
decisions should remain in the hands of the professionals in the
departments of natural resources and fish and game.
Number 1300
CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN said the committee would hear from witnesses on
the teleconference network.
PATRICK PHILLIPS, member, Chugach State Park Citizens Advisory
Board; officer and director, Alaska General Industries Inc.,
testified that an estimated 28,000 snowmobile owners reside in
Anchorage. He said HB 447 is a splendid piece of legislation and
is greatly needed. If this bill had been in place 15 years ago,
perhaps 70 percent of Chugach State Park would not have become a
wilderness sanctuary closed to winter motorized recreation. He
asked the committee to consider adding language to restore
snowmobile owners rights in those areas that have been taken away,
and the right to recreational access on public lands.
Number 1419
KEVIN HITE, Board of Directors, Anchorage Snowmobile Club, and Park
Watch Coordinator, Chugach State Park, said he is testifying in
support of HB 447 on behalf of the 700 members and families of the
Anchorage Snowmobile Club. He said Anchorage is a prime example of
an area that has been closed to recreational use with the slow
incremental exclusion of access of a particular user group to
public lands based on personal preferences. HB 447 will help stop
the disenfranchisement of the snowmobile user group.
Number 1523
MICK MANNS, Paradise Valley Mining and Golden Wilderness
Recreation, testified on behalf of the recreational users and
miners of the Brooks Range, Coldfoot and Bettles. He said the law
needs to be clarified and HB 447 is a good place to start. Our
concern is in active mining. We work with the snowmachiners and
dog mushers in our area and mark the trails to keep them off of our
airstrip and keep them away from areas of open cut. There should
be language added to HB 447 that protects both the traditional
users, and the miners, and the people who own private airstrips.
Every winter individuals abuse that right; they run over runway
markers and tear up mining claim markers in active mining areas.
By staying on traditional trails, especially when there are open
pit and drift shaft hazards, they can avoid injury to themselves
and avoid liability to the state and to the miner. There should be
something in law to penalize abusers.
Number 1776
RANDY CROSBY, Sno-Action Alaska and (indisc.) Lake Lodge, testified
in support of HB 447 saying that he is aware of many instances
where land managers of the state have taken it upon themselves to
reclassify land, and then restrict or prohibit the most common
means of transportation used to reach these lands. For example,
Blair Lake, about 15 miles north of Talkeetna. Until last year,
this was a lake reasonably accessible only by airplane, in the
summer. Through an ILMA, it is now classified as part of Denali
State Park. The first thing park managers did was to propose
prohibiting aircraft from landing there with the regulation change.
When questioned on their actions, park managers said they were
pursuing management objectives to protect the resources. History
will show that aircraft have been landing there for decades and no
harm has come to the resource as yet. The value of this lake and
the surrounding land has decreased for most Alaska citizens as the
reasonable access to it is now a signature away from being
prohibited. He felt that HB 447 will allow citizens more control
in the management of their land and take away the power of
bureaucrats deciding what is best for us.
Number 1905
LINNEA GREAVES, Far North Tours, testified in support of HB 447
saying that winter tourists look forward to snowmobiling and snow
cap tours. She expressed concern that some recreational access
will be limited. She asked the committee to look at extending its
authority to Title 41.
CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN announced that the committee had received written
testimony from Roy C. Bowdre, Delta Junction, in support of HB 447.
DANA OLSON, Amber Lake Homeowners Association, testified that HB
447 supersedes the land planning process and has the potential of
constitutional challenges because it affects the equal opportunity
to obtain state ownership. She believes that the public has the
right to obtain land, but has a problem with a bill that affects
the state's ability to do land planning and to dispose of land
simply for recreational or subsistence uses.
MS. OLSON said her property in Amber Lake includes a seismic trail
with signs posted no trespassing. Keep Out. Still, there are
snowmachine races down the trail destroying the fences, the
shrubbery and the agricultural crop. She forewarned that the
legislature will have a problem with enforcement.
MS. OLSON felt that HB 447 is being generated by the self-interests
of the bill's sponsor and the Talkeetna area. She said the
proponents of HB 447 are very vocal about being involved in the
land planning process, and recommended that these issues be
addressed in the staff plan.
Number 2141
DAVID ROGERS, Attorney, Lobbyist, Council of Alaska Producers and
Echo Bay Alaska, testified that he is concerned about implications
with respect to mining and other development projects. He said he
would follow the progress of the bill.
Number 2179
MR. STANCLIFF said it is not the sponsor's intention to thwart
mining or development or private land ownership. The bill only
involves decisions that are major, public access decisions. The
planning processes can go on "ad infinitum," and this does not take
away powers of planning. But, if HB 447 passes, the legislature
would have a say in the matter. We have in statute protected
access for mining. What has not happened is to balance the agenda
with regard to recreation.
MR. STANCLIFF said the DNR's comments were not exactly correct in
that this bill is addressed to the commissioner's authority. In
the case of Blair Lake, the commissioner's representative stated
that if we wanted to get into parks, we needed to move from Title
38 to Title 41. Representative Masek started with Title 38 because
land managers allowed the Division of Parks to extend 640 acres
into general land management and shut off access. There is nothing
to prevent this from happening. This bill would allow some
protection for future development as it coincides with traditional
access. He said the Senate version may be the vehicle that is
used, but he asked the committee to consider moving HB 447.
Number 2298
CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN clarified that HB 447 is an amendment to Title
38. He asked if the Senate version is the same.
MR. STANCLIFF said the bills are identical, but more and more folks
want to extend into the Department of Fish and Game land, who will
block access; and they want to extend into Title 41, Division of
Parks, because of winter tourism. The Alaska Visitors Association
and the Alaska Tourism Marketing Council have listed "access" as a
major part of their agenda. He said there are 54 million acres of
federal wilderness in this state and access has been blocked on it.
It is called national parks.
MR. STANCLIFF reported that the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service is
also in the process of blocking motorized access in all kinds of
areas. The BLM has blocked access in recognition of archeological
discoveries along the Denali Highway. What is left for Alaskan
citizens really exists only on state lands.
Number 2351
REPRESENTATIVE OGAN referred to the Jim Stratton memo and asked for
clarification on ILMA's. He asked Mr. Stancliff if he feels the
Department of Natural Resources is exceeding its intent.
MR. STANCLIFF said the statutes cited in the memo make no reference
to restricting access to state land. He said there have been 500
uses of this discretionary authority and the department has been
asked to provide explanation of how they have affected access.
Number 2437
REPRESENTATIVE OGAN asked Mr. Stancliff if he characterizes this
action as an abuse of the ILMA process.
MR. STANCLIFF said Representative Masek feels it is a blatant abuse
of the process.
Number 2447
REPRESENTATIVE OGAN asked if Representative Masek would consider a
"friendly amendment" to include "horseback riding and packing" in
the allowable means of traditional means of access?
MR. STANCLIFF responded that would be considered a friendly
amendment and said another friendly amendment would include
"recreational mining." It is not limited to those....end Side A.
TAPE 96-12, SIDE B
Number 000
CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN referenced earlier testimony from witnesses
concerned about mining and safety issues. He asked if the sponsor
would consider an amendment to include the posting of notices.
MR. STANCLIFF said that would be considered a friendly amendment.
When the state parcels out land disposals or mining claims and they
are across a trail that has been used for forty years, there is
going to be conflict. Proper marking and a provision in the
legislation that says it does not authorize unacceptable incursions
into private land or development lands would be proper.
Number 057
CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN discussed with Mr. Stancliff whether the sponsor
would prefer that the bill be amended in the Resources Committee or
the House Finance Committee.
MR. STANCLIFF indicated that the Senate version will probably be
the version that is passed. He recommended that the committee pass
HB 447 out of committee with the attached friendly amendments.
Number 106
REPRESENTATIVE OGAN moved to pass HB 447 out of the Resources
Committee with individual recommendations and attached fiscal note.
REPRESENTATIVE ALAN AUSTERMAN objected, advising the committee not
to pass the bill until the committee's amendments are incorporated.
He stated that the committee may not like the Senate version, and
said he wants to further research Title 41.
Number 161
REPRESENTATIVE OGAN concurred with Representative Austerman and
withdrew his motion.
Number 200
CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN appointed a subcommittee for HB 447 comprised of
Representative Nicholia, Co-Chairman Williams and Representative
Ogan, chair.
CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN brought HB 439 before the House Resources
Committee.
HB 439 MINING BONDING POOL & ADVISORY COM'N
Number 223
REPRESENTATIVE TOM BRICE said HB 439 emerged from Alaska Minerals
Commission recommendations and from various miners within Alaska.
He said while the commissioner may allow surface coal mining
operations to participate, no surface coal mine has been able to
use the pool. He said the bonding pool provides, to miners, a
cheaper alternative to the reclamation bonding.
REPRESENTATIVE BRICE explained that reclamation bonding is very
expensive and very hard to obtain due to environmental laws and,
what is hard to quantify, but what is actually reclaimed. The
bonding pool was established to provide an alternative means to
reclamation bonding. He said HB 439 adds surface coal mine
operations to the list of participants who comprise the bonding
pool without having to pay substantial sums of cash or provide
certificates of deposit to meet the reclamation requirements.
Number 365
C0-CHAIRMAN GREEN theorized that there are ten honorable people who
form the pool, and then "Joe Sleaze Bag" wants to get involved. Is
there an assurance or protection in the bill that "Mr. Sleaze Bag"
cannot tap this pool? Is there an opportunity to then "blackball"
him?
Number 482
REPRESENTATIVE BRICE said the current laws, in Title 29, are very
stringent and pretty nasty to people who do not meet reclamation
requirements. He premised about a participant who does not pay
reclamation, leaving it to the bonding pool to pay for. Imagine
about 10-15 placer miners who are having their bonding pool sucked
dry to pay for that operation. "You ain't got a friend in this
town," not to mention being civilly liable for both reclamation and
administrative costs to ensure that that reclamation is done.
CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN further illuminated, if "Mr. Sleaze Bag" does not
have a record, he may come in from another state, and he may sell
150 or 200 percent interest in a wildcat well.
REPRESENTATIVE BRICE explained that to participate in a surface
coal mining operation, you have to go through a permitting process
and put up a substantial amount of money initially. He said there
is a cap of $750.00 per acre for placer miners under this
provision, but that cap does not apply to surface coal mining.
Number 548
REPRESENTATIVE OGAN referred to the letter from Usibelli Coal Mine
to Representative Brice, and clarified that HB 439 establishes a
bonding pool. He said since Usibelli is the only active coal mine
in the state, how can you have a pool of one?
REPRESENTATIVE BRICE said the bill allows the surface coal miners,
the Usibelli Coal Mine, to participate in an existing pool for
mining reclamation that includes placer miners and various other
types of mining activities across the state. Usibelli will provide
a large source of income to that pool and provide financial
stability to the rest of the mining operations.
Number 587
REPRESENTATIVE OGAN asked who else is in the pool? Representative
Brice deferred to the Department of Natural Resources.
CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN surmised that there have been a number of coal
leases issued and it is a matter of the market.
REPRESENTATIVE BRICE said that was true, and reclamation bonding is
a major hurdle in the development of those leases.
Number 636
CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN asked if this also applies to private lands, that
have the jurisdiction, throughout the state.
REPRESENTATIVE BRICE responded that it applies to those areas where
reclamation bonding is required.
Number 675
REPRESENTATIVE AUSTERMAN referenced the new section on page three,
line 25, Alaska Surface Coal Mining Advisory Commission, and asked
if this is a new commission
REPRESENTATIVE BRICE answered that was correct. The idea is to
establish a commission that focuses on surface coal mine issues.
Currently, within the Department of Natural Resources budget the
surface coal mines are about to lose primacy in its regulatory
abilities. That is an issue this advisory commission could be
looking at as well as various other bonding requirements.
Representative Brice referred to the items outlined in the Usibelli
letter that the advisory commission could address.
REPRESENTATIVE BRICE said there is a $75.0 fiscal note for the
advisory commission. He said discussions were held on limiting the
commission to two or three years.
REPRESENTATIVE AUSTERMAN asked the sponsor if it was his intention
to add a subsection (e) to limit the commission to two years.
REPRESENTATIVE BRICE acknowledged that was a consideration.
Number 750
REPRESENTATIVE AUSTERMAN said HB 439 has both Labor & Commerce and
Finance committee referrals. He suggested that the Resources
Committee send a recommendation to consider sunset regulation.
Number 827
C0-CHAIRMAN GREEN announced that the committee would hear from the
participants on the teleconference network.
R. B. STILES, President, Armor Corporation, and President, Alaska
Coal Association testified in support of HB 439 identifying first,
things that the bill will not do:
- HB 439 will not decrease the required level of bonding for
surface coal mines.
- HB 439 will not increase the risk profile of the bonding pool.
- HB 439 will not necessarily decrease the bonding expense for
surface coal miners.
- HB 439 will reduce the amount of assets that have to be placed as
surety in support of these bonds.
Number 950
MR. STILES said he would like to cover items that the bill will do.
- HB 439 will increase the assets of and the income to the bonding
pool.
- HB 439 will make bonding available to Alaskan surface coal
miners.
Number 980
MR. STILES said if a guy is a "scuzzball," he will never obtain a
bond or a permit.
Number 1017
MICK MANNS, Paradise Valley Mining, also testified on HB 439
stating that the bill will definitely increase the capability of
the bonding pool. He related an instance in Alaska where certain
individuals had refused to give bonding money back to people they
did not like even though the reclamation was complete. Mr. Manns
recommended that oversight was needed to ensure that this cannot
happen in future.
Number 1061
CHARLES P. BODDY, Usibelli Coal Mine, Inc., testified on behalf of
Usibelli Coal Mine, he interpolated -Alaska's only current
producing coal mine- and referenced the session laws of 1982, the
Alaska Surface Coal Mining program, saying that part of that law
included different forms of bonding that were to be part of that
program. One requirement was that a self bonding program shall be
developed. He said that law was passed in 1982, and in February of
1996, we are still without the ability to self bond in this state
because the regulations for self bonding called for in 1982 have
not been pushed through. He discussed a concern with the session
laws of Alaska of 1990 which created a bonding pool that was used
for all mining other than surface coal mining.
Number 1155
MR. BODDY requested that one sentence be added to that law, "the
commissioner may allow coal mining individuals to bond through the
pool."
Number 1218
MR. BODDY continued, the second part of HB 439 pertains to the
creation of the Alaska Surface Coal Mining Advisory Commission, and
it is a very positive part of the bill. He said the Governor's
budget is turning primacy back to the federal government by
abolishing the surface coal mine permitting program in Alaska. He
recommended that a two year life for the newly formed commission
would be adequate.
MR. BODDY discussed sections of the federal Surface Coal Mining
Control and Reclamation Act and the inconsistencies in those
sections. He said one task of the commission could work on
clarifying the relationship of the state and federal agencies in
applying the regulations developed for use in the coterminous
United States, to the unique environment we experience here in
Alaska.
Number 1319
MR. BODDY said he would like to see legislative involvement on the
proposed surface coal mine commission and recommended that the
chairmen of the Senate and House Resources Committees serve as ex-
officio members on the commission.
Number 1473
REPRESENTATIVE OGAN asked Mr. Boddy why the Alaska Minerals
Commission is not addressing this bonding issue rather than
creating a new commission at the expense of $75,000.
MR. BODDY said from the Alaska Coal Association's point of view,
the Alaska Minerals Commission would not be an appropriate group to
do this. This is a sufficiently, industry and program specific
initiative where the coal industry is willing to pay its own way so
that the cost can be minimized except for the Administrative and
legislative sides.
Number 1590
NICO BUS, Acting Director, Division of Support Services, Department
of Natural Resources commented that the department does not have a
problem with the bonding part of HB 439, but the DNR does have a
problem with the fiscal impact of creating a new commission, in a
time of fiscal constraint. He said the DNR would be happy to work
with the sponsor and the industry to resolve this issue.
Number 1658
REPRESENTATIVE BRICE responded that his office is always open to
these types of negotiations and he is more than happy to resolve
these issues.
CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN asked Representative Brice for his preference of
working on the bill in the Resources Committee or passing it to the
next committee of referral, House Labor and Commerce.
REPRESENTATIVE BRICE said his preference was to move the bill to
Labor and Commerce and, in the meantime, prepare an appropriate
committee substitute.
Number 1751
REPRESENTATIVE PETE KOTT said, in the spirit of cooperation, he
knows exactly what he wants to do with HB 439. He said the House
Labor and Commerce is charged with the oversight of boards and
commission, and would work with the sponsor in drafting a committee
substitute.
REPRESENTATIVE OGAN expressed his concern with the fiscal impact.
He said if this commission is established, he is emphatic that its
life be no longer than two years.
Number 1809
CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN said there have been several suggestions to amend
HB 439 including Representative Austerman proposal for sunset
regulations. Chairman Green felt that the House Labor and Commerce
Committee could address these changes including Mr. Manns concern
where the jurisdiction did not return the bonding money. He said
he would entertain a motion to move the bill.
Number 1858
REPRESENTATIVE AUSTERMAN moved that HB 439 move from the House
Resources Committee with individual recommendations and the
attached fiscal note. Hearing no objection, it was so ordered.
HSCR 1 - DISAPPROVING EXECUTIVE ORDER 92
Number 1888
CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN brought HSCR 1 before the committee. No one from
the House Special Committee on Oil & Gas was available to testify.
A memorandum from Representative Rokeberg, Chairman, House Special
Committee on Oil & Gas to the House Resources Committee is as
follows:
"Executive Order No. 92 consolidates the Division of Oil and Gas
with the Division of Geological and Geophysical Surveys located
within the Department of Natural Resources. The testimony before
the House Special Committee on Oil and Gas indicated that there is
no consensus regarding whether the consolidation outlined in
Executive Order No. 92 is the correct configuration of the two
divisions.
"Remarks during public testimony indicates there are both good and
bad consequences if the consolidation goes forward. As a result of
committee testimony, the members of the committee voted to
introduce a special resolution to oppose the consolidation in order
to expedite the process and move the executive order to the
appropriate authorized committee.
"In addition, we checked with Legislative Legal on the proper
procedure for handling a resolution opposing an executive order.
The legal memorandum we received stated that under Uniform Rule 21,
joint standing committees must consider executive orders."
Number 1924
NICO BUS, Acting Director, Division of Support Services, Department
of Natural Resources provided background information on the bill.
During last year's budget process, the funding for the director's
position of the Division of Geological and Geophysical Surveys was
deleted. He said the department then looked at the division to see
if it warranted it's own division status. The commissioner asked
the Alaska Geologic Mapping Advisory Board to establish a committee
and assess the role and function of the Division of Geological &
Geophysical Surveys and decide whether or not the department needed
a director.
MR. BUS said that report was finalized, last fall. The board
recommended that the director/state geology office be relocated to
Anchorage; recruiting through a nationwide recruiting system, and
that the director be appointed for a five year term. Another
recommendation was that the Division of Geological and Geophysical
Surveys needed to have a strong presence in the state of Alaska
because of its importance to the resource and because of recurring
geological hazards.
MR. BUS said another recommendation was that the geological surveys
division pursue and develop partnerships with those who are working
towards common goals. He said during the Fiscal Year 97 budget
preparations, the department looked at efficiencies. The DNR did
not want to diminish the mission of the Division of Geological and
Geophysical Surveys, and the department also wanted to implement
the recommendations of the Alaska Geologic Advisory Board. He said
the DNR's objective was to strengthen the surveys and improve
administrative support. As a result, the Department of Natural
Resources proposed Executive Order No. 92.
Number 2082
MR. BUS said, to make sure that the Division of Geological and
Geophysical Surveys does not get absorbed into the Division of Oil
and Gas, which was a concern of the House Special Committee on Oil
and Gas, they will be doing best interest findings for the oil and
gas people. The DNR basically wants to keep them separate in terms
of budgetary issues. These two divisions will each have their own
budget component and the legislature will have the opportunity to
fund them at appropriate levels. The DNR plans to keep the field
presence in tact for the geological surveys which it feels is very
critical.
MR. BUS said the consolidation provides some budget efficiencies by
sharing administrative support for both divisions and, in that
process, the DNR saves $50,000 in the FY97 budget, which is in line
with what the legislature charged us with during the budget
deliberations.
MR. BUS said the DNR feels Executive Order No. 92 is an efficiency
measure in state government aimed at improving cooperation and
communication between the two divisions and strengthening their
missions. In the process, the department is gaining budgetary and
administrative efficiencies. He said Mr. Ken Boyd was available to
answer programmatic questions.
Number 2282
KENNETH A. BOYD, Director, Division of Oil and Gas, Department of
Natural Resources, testified that the resolution combines two
divisions with a long history of cooperation on various projects
including methane projects, and North Slope field work in general.
He hoped this combination will provide new opportunities to work
together in the future. He said he strongly supports Executive
Order No. 92. It is an opportunity for administrative
efficiencies.
Number 2347
CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN referred to Executive Order N0. 92. Section 3. AS
41.08.010 and Section 4. AS 41.08.020 and discussed requirements
and duties of the state geologist. There is no prerequisite in the
order requiring that the person who does the administration be a
registered geologist; like the Oil and Gas Conservation Commission,
for example.
CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN said, speaking in accordance with the Special
Committee on Oil and Gas, his concern is that, as a function, the
prior Division of Geological and Geophysical Surveys would be under
the auspices of the Division of Oil and Gas....end tape.
TAPE 96-13, SIDE A
Number 000
CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN stated that the geology surveys division has
consistently been utilized by the minerals industry for their
expertise, maps, and hazard specialization which are the described
duties for the general public and for entities that do not have
large and sophisticated groups of geological and geophysical
expertise; whereas the oil and gas industry has these resources at
their command.
CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN mentioned his past association with the oil and
gas industry and expounded on the industry's self-reliance in doing
its own surveys. He alluded to the bidding on bonus lease sales and
lease sales where there has been no bidding. He said a more direct
example would be "bonus bidding" and "the money left on the table."
What that is, is significant amounts of money left on the table,
even with the most sophisticated geological departments in some of
these companies.
CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN declared that a better use of the agency's
resource might be to keep the Division of Geological & Geophysical
Surveys either autonomous or combined with the Division of Mines.
He said he agreed with the House Special Committee on Oil and Gas
and tended not to approve Executive Order No. 92.
Number 327
MR. BOYD said the Division of Oil and Gas does not nominate areas
for leasing, the division takes lease sale nominations from
industry as far as the five-year process. The two lease sales that
had no bidders, both of those areas were nominated by industry, in
areas where they had an interest. As time passes, economics may
change and companies interest may move, but industry does nominate
the acreage.
MR. BOYD continued, the purpose of the geology section in the
Division of Oil and Gas is not just the technical part of the lease
sale, it is there to do a lot of the work that involves unitization
computerization and other issues that involve geological and
geophysical knowledge. In summary, to protect the state's
interest.
MR. BOYD said he would try to do a good job as the state's
geologist. It is not his intention to meld the groups together
except to use the capabilities of both groups in a cross
pollination. He would like the people in Fairbanks involved in
day-to-day operations, the unitization and computerization
functions and to learn how tract allocation works. He felt this is
a valuable lesson for any geologist.
Number 429
CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN commended Mr. Boyd on the work that he has been
doing, he said the work is exemplary. Chairman Green clarified
that his comments, in no way, reflect any disrespect for the great
job Mr. Boyd is doing.
Number 457
CO-CHAIRMAN WILLIAMS said the state is encouraging fiscal restraint
and talking about consolidation in many areas. He asked Chairman
Green that if his concern was resolved, would it hinder the
industry to consolidate.
Number 500
CO-CHAIRMAN said consolidation would not hurt the Division of Oil
and Gas, it would help them. He said his concern is that the
divisions would not stay separate, and the Division of Geological
and Geophysical Surveys would not continue to be as aggressive in
the charges that are incumbent upon them. He said if there is an
economy of scale, he would rather see them combined with a group
that does utilize them and stay focused on hard rock and tectonics.
Number 643
REPRESENTATIVE AUSTERMAN asked if consolidation can be done and
still protect those issues. He said, there is nothing wrong with
saving money and now we are saying that we do not want to save
money.
CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN said there may be a better marriage that saves
the same amount of money but does away with the potential of
drifting into the wrong element.
CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN said the intent of HSCR 1 is to not put the
Division of Geological and Geophysical Surveys in the Division of
Oil and Gas. Leaving it by itself will require a fiscal note, or
continue without a leader, or meld them with the Division of Mines.
Number 709
REPRESENTATIVE AUSTERMAN asked if the committee could amend the
Executive Order No. 92 to delete the Division of Oil and Gas and
include the minerals division.
CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN said the House Resources Committee or someone
would have to sponsor a bill to do that prior to February 11th.
Number 751
REPRESENTATIVE OGAN moved HSCR 1 move from the House Resources
Committee with individual recommendations and attached zero fiscal
note. Hearing no objection, it was so ordered.
ADJOURNMENT
There being no further business to come before the House Resources
Committee, Chairman Green adjourned the meeting at 9:58 a.m.
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